Aregument from The Citroen DS page on the Revenge of the Pink Panther:









F-Series sold twenty nine million units, so twenty nine million have heard of it. But then, multiply this by 3 (two kids/friend and wife/girlfriend) for people who knew a person with an F-Series or for people who have heard of the F-Series but do not own one.

The Citroen DS sold barely one million cars, but this car was more well known because it was revolutionary. So, you could say we multiply this by say 10> 10,000,000 have heard of the DS.

Any way you cut or slice it, the F-Series is going to be more well know, or at least jsut as well known then the DS just because it sold more. The DS was famous when introduced, and is still famous in Europe. But in North America, about 1/10 will not have heard of "DS", but 9/10 will have heard of "F-150".
Don't say I'm not making sense Antione/Dongington/whoever because it is very clear:

F-Series has been around much, much longer and has sold more (in more places), DS was revolutionary but only sold one million, for just uner 20 years and mostly in Europe.

Also, just because a car isn't famous in Europe, doesn't mean it isn't famous. The Explorer and F-Series are both sold widely outside of Europe. And Antione> You don't have to delete my comments, just because you happen to disagree with them.

As for Leolito's comment, it is impossible for a car enthusiest not to recognize "Mustang". And I'm a car fan, and so is my Dad. I had never heard of Citroen or DS before I joined IMCDb, and my Dad just said "Citroen is a European make. They made some famous car, I don't know what it was."

Donington, whats a Concorde? Isn't it a Chrysler car?

one and a half million isn't barely one million. less people drove, as well

and Concorde, It's a plane. Or it was.

http://www.abbotsfordairshow.com/history/timeline/concorde-1986.jpg

Well, the Concorde was a car also, although considerably less important than the plane (nice car though, I had an Intrepid - the same thing, really - and loved it).

Anyways, are you trying to tell us that the Chevy Cavalier, something that was for the most part, a dull, uninspiring, throwaway car that was obsolete before it hit the market (in the early 80's, at that) is better known than the Mini?

Or, another way to put it. I don't own a Ferarri, and I don't know a single person who ever has owned one. But at the same time, Ferarri is a very famous make.

Basically, sales only prove that the car was successful, that it filled the need of a large number of people, at a reasonable price. It doesn't prove a single thing about how good, memorable, or important the car is.

As you said, reasonable price. The DS was a hi-priced car compared to lots of european cars. So 1.5 million is good for such car. In the list you can see that they sold more Renault 5 than DS, but the DS is more famous. The Renault 5 was a little economic car (sold as "LeCar" in USA, but they did not sold lots of them there, less than 100 000, which is still not so bad).



What do you want to prove? The DS is well-known, that's a fact, you can't prove that it is not the case.
About F-Series and Explorer, I doubt that they can be considered as well-known. In Europe (which count more peole than USA...) you will not find so easily people that know what Ford F-Series or Ford Explorer are (well, for the Explorer they may guess that it is a SUV because of the name, but they probably cannot identify it if you ask to recognize it between few other Ford SUVs). For example, though I have interest in cars and that I knew lots of US models before starting IMCDb, and that I knew all major US makes (you did not know European ones), I did not know what the F-Series was...
For the rest of the world, you can't say that they know more the F-Series than the DS, you do not have any info about that.
In Asia & Africa I doubt that the F-Series is known, they rather use Toyota & Nissan pickups.


It is not deleted, it is archived. And it is not me that did that, I am not the only admin on the site, you know. Most of the admins are fed up with your off-topic on the comments pages

The DS is not half as famous as Ferrari! When the average man thinks of performance cars, he thinks of a Ferrari.
The DS is only really famous in Europe, evrywhere else it is known by old people or a handful who have seen one. I thought the DS was supposed to be a success?
FOR THE LAST TIME! I know the DS is famous. But it isn't as famous as the F-Series. The DS had a short run, was expensive and sold mostly in Europe. Yet, the F-Series has been around for over 50 years, has sold millions accross the world and was cheap. I'm not trying to prove that the DS is not famous, it is very famous. I just want to prove that there are cars MORE famous, like the Ford F-Series and Mustang, the Volkswagen Beatle and Chevrolet Camaro.

No, you want to prove that you can't read, as I said lots of time that I never said that the DS was the most famous.
I just said that it was one of the most famous. Nothing more. No comparison with Mustang or other. I just say that in a list of - let's say - 50 most famous cars, it would be listed. I do not say where, 1st, 15th, 37, 50th, no idea.

And about F-Series... I do not think that F-Series is so famous outside USA. Maybe in America (North+South), but as I said elsewhere it does not seem so common.

Mustang, Camaro, etc. are famous (well, Camaro maybe not so much, I doubt that so many people would recognize it), but not F-Series.

And the fact that they sold lots in USA does not mean that it was famous in the whole world.
F-Series was made for 50 years, yes. But what is the common point between the first one and last one? Nothing, except name and concept (pickup made by Ford).
So F-Series = lots of models.
Easy to sell lots of cars of a model when your model is in fact lots of different cars.
Like VW that claims that they sold more Golf than Beetle, but they had to remake it 4 times to do that (though they still sell the original one in South-Africa).

On famous American cars, don't forget the late seventies Trans Am and sixties Dodge charger, those two are really famous, much more than the Explorer (well, the explorer is, for all the wrong reasons)

Who cares? The General Lee is probably more famous than the Dodge Charger. KITT is more famous than a Firebird. The Bluesmobile is more famous than the Dodge Monaco. And the Batmobile is more famous than the Lincoln Futura. You can play that game all you want. I think they get all equal billing because they're all special in their own way. If they weren't special, then why did they choose to use a DS as a taxicab in 2015?

Antoine and Bebert, since you two seem to know a lot about the DS. Can you confirm this (extracted from 50 Years Of Classic Cars by Jonathon Wood): "French production continued until April 1975, by which time one and a half million Citroen DS' had been built."

Is this true (*by the way, I am laughing really hard right now)? So, if it is, this means "this revolutionary car" that stayed in production TWO TIMES AS LONG as the entry-level, compact sedan called the FORD TEMPO, yet the Tempo outsold the DS by over TWO MILLION!
DS> 20 years of production
Tempo> 10 years of production
DS> North America and Europe
Tempo> North America
DS> 1 and a half million
Tempo> 3 million

Also, just so we got this cleared up, the DS and Tempo had only 9 years apart (DS>1975, Tempo> 1984).

Also included in this book is the Citroen 2CV and Traction Avant. Is it true, when the entire world was getting into aerodynamics, that the 2CV had 1940s styling in the 90s? Or that in the 50s, the Traction looked like a 1930s car?

I am laughing (well, rather crying) because you forgot again what I said:
DS was a French car, so sold mainly in France.
At that time each country was buying its own cars. So most of the DS were sold in France. 1.5 millions of cars sold on a market of 60 millions of people is very good.
And the DS was a large and expensive car for the European marked. So it is also normal that they sold less than a small/comact economic car (cf how many Renault 5 they sold).

The 2CV is a 50s car. The traction is a 30s car. So it is normal that in the end of their production they were looking old. Is it so difficult to understand that in Europe the models were changed only 10 or 20 years after the launching, and that in USA they restyled them each year or every two year? Different countries, different systems, different cultures.
Saying that there are only 9 years appart is stupid as the DS was launched in 56, not in 75. It is like if you compare a 1999 Mexican VW Beetle to a 1999 VW New Beetle. Of course the first one is outdate, as it was started 60 years before the other one...

In the US, I believe the regular restyle is 2-4 years. But cars like the Chevy Beretta, Ford Explorer and Chevroelt Corsica lasted long in their generations.

The Tempo was an American, sold mainly in America. I don't get it. Still, I would have expected that the DS would have sold at least half as much as the Tempo. I mean, come one, isn't the DS supposed to be super-revolutionary?

Compare the number of people in America to the number of people in France (as most of them were sold in France & Belgium, even if it is known in the whole Europe...)
And the DS is not in the same category as the Tempo as I said lots of time.
It was more like France's Cadillac, Lincoln or some other expensive car. So compare it with the number of cars of that class sold.

Exactly, the DS sold a lot for the class it was in, and for a car that was very quriky. I would've actually expected the Tempo to sell more than that, is that Topaz's (Topai?) included?

Yes, it includes all Tempo and Topaz. But remember this was just 10 short years. Kia's entire lineup has not sold as much as the Tempo/Topaz did in ten years.

I also wonder, on that Wikipedia list, how they list the DS when it did not sell have as much, as the Tempo yet they don't have the Tempo

Also, someone (I tihnk Antione or Bebert) said you can't compare the DS to anything, as it was a car all in it's own. I would find it but SOMEONE (I won't say who, but it starts with an A, ends with a E, lives in Belgium and operates IMCDb) deletes all the comments. So, you can not compare the DS with Cadillac or Lincoln, as the DS was so different.

No, I did not delete anything. The comments are archived, and you can still find them as easily as before.

Remember that the Tempo would've also had quite a few fleet sales. Doesn't mean it's a great, or even a good car, it just means that Ford managed to undercut all other bids. The DS, on the other hand, would've had mostly private sales (maybe a handful to higher levels of the government, but that'd be about it).

Also, the Tempo was introduced in a more prosperous time than the DS, and has been said, sold to a much bigger market.

Are you saying the car that invented power seats and daytime running lights is not a great car?

My point is, if the DS was so revolutionary, it seems like it would have sold better. I mean, the Mustang was not as revolutionary, but look at how well it sold!

What do you mean by "daytime running lights"? Isn't that something that Swedish cars (Volvo/Saab) have since long time? (maybe not in USA, but probably in their home country).

And the Tempo was the first one to have power seats? Well, I find strange that luxury car did not had that before in USA...

The fact that as car is revolutionary has nothing to do with the fact that it solds well. It may help to make the car famous, it may help to sell it, but it is not always the case.

I meant in an entry-level sedan . DRLs have been used in high-end and exotic cars since a the late 70s. The Ford Tempo (and soon after the Corsica) were the first entry-level sedans to use them. Also, Oldsmobile invented the DRL/Daytime Running Headlights. Not everything was invented by Europeans . Almost all the cute little accessories everyone takes for granted were invented by Americans: power windows (Lincoln, 1941), power locks (Packard), the safety belt (Ford), hidden windsheild wipers, and millions of other things.

As for power seats, I think Oldsmobile invented them in the 1950s. But they first saw wide use in the 1980s, with cars like the Ford Tempo.

Wasn't the DS sold as fleet too? Taxis? The Tempo was rarely sold as fleet, if you knew anything you'd know the word: LTD/Crown Victoria! Taxi cabs, squad cars etc were almost 99% Crown Vics/LTDs and NOT Tempos. Tempos were sold mostly to public, unlike the Corsica (which was released as a commercial car like the Biscayne).