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Incorrect spelling/listing
Published 20/04/2014 @ 21:44:06, By antp
Current is v2, so next one will be v3
We do not use platform codes in general, these are too vague.
e.g. VW's platforms cover too many models, they have more precise chassis codes.
In the case of the Chrysler 300, LX seems used for more than just the platform though.

Latest Edition: 20/04/2014 @ 21:45:55


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Incorrect spelling/listing
Published 20/04/2014 @ 23:40:01, By eLMeR
I can't say if these codes are that important in IMCDb. After all, we can put them in comments too, in this v2. The most important is that all cars should be identified the same way...
All I know is that I like to "play" with that concept of plateform since almost 30 years: it's funny to try to tell the differences between the siblings of a same plateform, or to find (more or less) hidden siblings. :smile:
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Incorrect spelling/listing
Published 21/04/2014 @ 00:06:11, By antp
Usually a shared platform is not visible from the outside, unlike rebadging (that remembers me a previous discussion)
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Published 21/04/2014 @ 02:53:45, By eLMeR
Usually a shared platform is not visible from the outside, unlike rebadging

Some visible sharings:
- J-body cars: it was a worldwide plateform sharing, not only rebadging. Opel Ascona/Vauxhall Cavalier were rebadged cars of the other (which one was the first?), but if they were somewhat different from the Chevrolet Cavalier or the Pontiac Sunbird, for example, you can yet see a resemblance.
- Ford CE14 platform: Escort cars were quite a lot different but shared a lot on both side of the ocean.
- GM Epsilon II: the Opel/Vauxhall Insignia is not a rebadged version of the Cadillac XTS or of the Chevrolet Impala, yet you can see "something" between these cars, when you know they share the same "underwear" :wink:

And there some other examples that could be find, I think.
But you're right, usually there is no visible connection. You can hardly recognize a Peugeot 307 in a Citroën DS5 :boidleau:

(that remembers me a previous discussion)

J'ai failli le dire dans le message précédent :wink:

Latest Edition: 21/04/2014 @ 02:57:04
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Incorrect spelling/listing
Published 21/04/2014 @ 11:41:16, By antp
In "J-body" there is "body", so maybe there is more than just a link in the chassis :grin:
When "something" is visible, it is sometimes just because they were designed by the same company or even the same team. Or they inspired one from the other.
Like the US Fiesta Sedan which looks like the European-sourced one, but is actually a completely different car.

Latest Edition: 21/04/2014 @ 11:41:46
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Incorrect spelling/listing
Published 21/04/2014 @ 20:38:33, By eLMeR
Like the US Fiesta Sedan which looks like the European-sourced one, but is actually a completely different car.

Are we talking about the same car? http://www.imcdb.org/res/smileys/think.gif
Seen on the motor-legend website, about the 2009 Los Angeles motorshow:
"Si sa plateforme est identique, la Fiesta US se distingue par une face avant spécifique, ainsi que par cette disgracieuse version à 4 portes !"

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4069/4649842651_d906b4c69b_n.jpg
(de/uk version // US version)

Both are made on the Ford B3/Mazda D platform. If I am not mistaken, the differences are just cosmetic changes.
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Published 21/04/2014 @ 20:55:39, By antp
As I said a lot of times, the platform does not mean much, that's just a part of the chassis.
The US hatchback version had many small changes from the European one.
From what I remembered they redone the whole car for the US sedan version, but I think that these info came from Wikipedia and the page changed since then.
Maybe there aren't much differences between the US hatchback and US sedan then...
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Published 22/04/2014 @ 15:43:45, By eLMeR
As I said a lot of times, the platform does not mean much, that's just a part of the chassis

This is in fact the basis of our disagreement :smile:
First, as chassis are no longer used on modern cars for about 50 years, being replaced by... platforms and self supporting bodies, this idea is for me technically incorrect.

And platforms allow engineers to create more(1) and more quickly vehicles, thus helping companies to ensure huge economies of scale and to stay alive. So I consider them quite a bit important :wink:

Nevertheless, let us not forget the initial question: should LX plateform information appear for 2011+ Chrysler, or not?
The "LX" I put on the Chrysler 300 I identified was deleted. Is it the official answer? :joce:
If so, what about the 2005-2010 model?

By the way, on the same subject: the GM J plateform, again. There is too much (or too few) cars in it, in the IMCDb :smile:
_______

(1): 21 cars based on the 2001 Peugeot PF2 platform, for now. Already 11 made and/or scheduled on the 2012 Volkwagen MBQ...
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Published 22/04/2014 @ 16:28:23, By antp
By chassis I mean the internal basis elements of the car, i.e. invisible part. Not literally a chassis.
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Published 22/04/2014 @ 17:55:18, By eLMeR
Sorry for the misunderstanding, then.

And for the "chassis/code name", I'll continue to put it in the comments. So my "pernicketiness" will have a way out :alarmclock119:
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Published 23/04/2014 @ 18:39:14, By t0nkatracker
Those "J"s are my fault... I used to list the "Series Code" on GM cars but was told that we don't list them, I guess some made it through. These are really just platform designations though, the vehicles have different internal chassis codes though.
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Incorrect spelling/listing
Published 30/04/2014 @ 22:12:45, By Gamer
Still waiting for the new pic to be accepted:
http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle.php?id=182277
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Incorrect spelling/listing
Published 26/06/2014 @ 15:18:42, By I-Denev
http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_276650-Madara-400-Series-1985.html

I noticed that the GAZ 53A from Bulgarian movies were renamed to "Madara 400-Series". It's totally incorrect. These trucks were never called Madara. It's just the factory that assembled this model here, the brand is GAZ.
http://www.mobile.bg/pcgi/mobile.cgi?act=7&f1=0&f2=4&f3=1&f4=Gaz&f5=53&f6=1

Besides that, only the half of those in Bulgaria were assembled here (with Perkins engine). Others were imported from USSR.
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Published 26/06/2014 @ 15:56:39, By antp
There are only five, so they can be changed manually
With a comment on http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_322599-Madara-400-Series-1985.html for history purpose
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Published 26/06/2014 @ 16:56:36, By I-Denev
Will do. But if Weasel1984 have something to say, he's welcome. I'm ready to discuss that.
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Published 27/06/2014 @ 14:00:41, By weasel1984
Not all GAZes 53 seen in Bulgarian movies have been renamed, but only few (well 5, like has been stated) - late ones, as not all BG-assembled GAZes were considered as the “400-series”.

This forum http://scalehobby.org/index.php?topic=1722.0 says, that later Bulgarian assembled GAZes with Perkins engine were called for example:
- 401
- 402 (turbo)
- 411 (tipper)
.

More websites/forums, which mention the Madara 400 naming:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAZ-53
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.167435356650388.39158.166588963401694&type=- 1
http://www.33gruzovika.ru/encyclopedia/m/254.html
http://www.mglnews.mn/content/38157.htm
It seems on one website, which I cannot find now, they quoted as source of similar informations Czech book about the Skoda/Liaz trucks.

And here is the Polish annual catalogue "Trucks of The World", edition 1998, which I own:
http://i.imgur.com/RijhAPK.jpg

Page 110 and 111 – short info about the Madara activity. The underlined words say:

Till 1992 following models were assembled (by Madara):

- 401/402 = GAZ 53A, 6-8 t, Perkins engine.


So it might deserve further research, but if sources from various parts of the world mention the “Madara 400” naming (even with such details like submodels), it can't be ignored.

Latest Edition: 27/06/2014 @ 14:22:34
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Incorrect spelling/listing
Published 27/06/2014 @ 20:11:00, By Ddey65
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Incorrect spelling/listing
Published 28/06/2014 @ 14:39:17, By I-Denev
GAZ 53 A, no matter if it is new or old, is known as GAZ 53 A. Of course that your books are saying Madara just to differentiate them from the Soviet assembly. Are badged "Madara" only the products made in cooperation with LIAZ. Nowhere in Bulgaria you can find GAZ 53 listed otherwise than GAZ 53. So listing them as "Madara 400" would be really inappropriated.

Besides, I'm again saying that Bulgarian assembled GAZ 53 are only about 40-50% of the total number sold. Be really aware of that.

Even for those assembled here, writing "Model origin Bulgaria" is ridiculous. Here we were only assembling a Soviet truck on basis of complete knocked-down kits. Only the Perkins engine is different from the Soviet model. Honestly, this doesn't makes of this truck a Bulgarian truck.
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Published 28/06/2014 @ 17:36:11, By weasel1984
Of course that your books are saying Madara just to differentiate them from the Soviet assembly.

No, because except the different brand they introduce also a different range of models. They have to have reason to do that! In place of "GAZ 53A" they don't call the Bulgarian trucks "Madara 53A", but "Madara 400-series". There weren't Soviet GAZ 401, 402 etc.

Besides, I'm again saying that Bulgarian assembled GAZ 53 are only about 40-50% of the total number sold. Be really aware of that.

Yes you did say previously "nearly half". Still if it was 50/50, to me the local version can be considered as default for the late ones. But this information has some meaning - I agree - I would like to know its source.

Even for those assembled here, writing "Model origin Bulgaria" is ridiculous.

... Only 5 are under BG origin, the late ones, with Bulgarian engine and with local name. Anyway this is a secondary issue.

Look, I showed you what I have on this subject - the objective sources. Still I'm ready to revise my views and learn something new. Meantime you use words like "ridiculous" or "totally incorrect", but you don't show anything to support your statements.

From the web - "GAZ 53" - with huge "Madara" lettering at the grille:
http://i.imgur.com/RhbG4l6.jpg
(can be just a "show truck")

Latest Edition: 28/06/2014 @ 17:52:18
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Incorrect spelling/listing
Published 28/06/2014 @ 19:15:35, By I-Denev
It's impossible to find a stat about assembly/import. I hope you guess that. Madara can't say nothing because they haven't statistics/data at all (trust me). Mototehnika can't say nothing too about the import (because if they had some data, they haven't it anymore as this company was fallen down since a while).

Again, you are basing all your research on Polish sources. Here in Bulgaria this truck was never and nowhere called "Madara 400". And I can't prove the fact that it was never called by this way.
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Incorrect spelling/listing
Published 28/06/2014 @ 20:53:35, By weasel1984
Again, you are basing all your research on Polish sources.

In fact I don't - only one from the mentioned sources is Polish*. Most of the links, I have given, leads to pages written in Cyrillic(!), one to international/English Wikipedia and one to some facebook page written in English too.

(* But to be honest I have one more annual Polish catalogue, which I didn't mention yet. It says about existance of the Madaras 401/402 too. It is from 1992 and in this case it was a direct translation of the German edition.)

Here in Bulgaria this truck was never and nowhere called "Madara 400".

It is very possible that for most of people, this brand (in this context) was unknown. It could be used only on the technical and sales material. For example here many people didn't know that Star fire trucks were sold (and registered!) under the Jelcz brand with own and different type/model names. Colloquially it was simply "Star fire truck". Does it mean that we should list them this way?

I'm sure the history of the Madara-GAZes was described in some recent Bulgarian magazine for the trucks/busses enthusiasts (and if it wasn't yet, it will be) - such article can brings some new facts.

P.S. As it turned out to be controversial, I've just changed the origin of the "400s" to Soviet one.
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