Hello,

While wandering in the ICMDb, I noticed that all Renault 6 were identified as "X18" models. Except this only one, which appears as "R18" (keying errors?).

What is this code for? According to two fan websites (I didn't find any other reference to these codes), the original project code of the "generic" Renault 6 was 118, especially R 1180 for 6 L, and R 1181 for the 6 L/TL (Sorry, the source for this two last refs is a framed website, you'll have to go to SYSTÈME NUMÉRIQUE (1945-1981) : Voitures by yourself).

The X18 code is part of the 1979-present alphanumeric code, and thus would never have been the standard one for a car which was produced from 1968 to 1980...
Moreover, as written in one of the two websites:
- Each project start with the "W" prefix, identifying it as a pilot study.
- Then this letter becomes an "X" when the project has been approved for a possible production.
- The "X" is then replaced by another letter matching the type of body (for exemple : X48 --> B48 for a 5 doors car or L48 for a 4 doors sedan).

So if a code stay at "X", it means it never went further than approval. For X18 code, we have:
- "18: R6 (unknown use) (X)" in planeterenault.com;
- "considered to be the project code of a later export version of the Renault 6, as the X17 was the one of the export version of the R12 (Dacia 1300)", in renaultconcepts.online.fr.

So what is the X18 code in the IMCDb website? Is it an internal or private reference? If so, would this not lead to some confusion?
_____________

By the way, this "X18" Renault 6 is the only R6 to be identified as "sedan" instead of being part of the "hatchback" pages, where it should appear in page 5...
_________________________

I fixed the R18 and the sedan.
X18 isn't really correct indeed. We changed these for some other models (Renault 12 I think), the 6 should be corrected too then.
http://renaultconcepts.online.fr/gamme/codes-frame.htm

Glass's gives codes in UK as R1180 for 6-850 (renamed 6L Oct 75) and R1181 for 6-1100 (renamed 6TL Oct 75); the codes are more about the engines than trim detail. X17 may be wrong but had the advantage of including South American build cars as well - so we need their codes (which may or may not be same as French build). Was it Weasel1984 who is our Renault code expert?? I think he's trying to convert lots of 70s/80s models (12/15/16/17 etc) from X to R series, but X was easy because it covered the range but R is specific to each version.

Renault 6 are R 118 (more precisely R 1180 for 6 L, R 1181 6 L/TL and R 1189 for cars made out of France). I think it can be changed quickly. At least in the database, maybe not in the habits of some admins that could be strongly used to this "X18" code?

For the R12, 300 of them (among 527) are identified as "X17"⁽¹⁾. Which seems not possible, as it was only for Romanian Dacia 1300/1310, and we don't have 300 pictures of this car . For Dacia only, the code should be:

1. R117/R133 for the 1969-1980 models, i.e before the code change that occurred in 1980;
2. X17 for 1980-1999 models;
3. X75 for models made after Renault bought Dacia in 1999 (the last 1309 pickup was manufactured in December 2006).

According to the proposed table, the R12 should be at least "R 117", or:
R 1170/TL for 12 / TL,
R 1171 for 12 Break,
R 1173 for 12 Gordini,
R 1177 for 12 TS,
R 1172, R 1174, R 1178, R 1179 for 12 Export,
and six or seven more possibilities with the "R 133" special code for (Break, Estate, Familiar, Kombi, Stasjonsvogn, Station Wagon, Stationcar, SW) models. Oh, and don't forget R 2360 code, used by the "R12 Break Société"...

With detailed denomination, we need extra-freak admins knowing R1179 (R1339 for breaks/SW) are export R12 made in Turkey and able to search the good ones among the 527 "generic" R12. Ok, it seems some admins went already berserk are already experts on this matter

Just for helping, my little contribution for R1179 models . And this one should be a 1339, not a 1330.

Or maybe it's easier to keep it all all of the R12 as single R 117?
Even export cars (the R12 was made in Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Canada, Ivory Coast, Spain, Ireland, Madagascar, Morocco, Portugal, Romania and Turkey!) should so "reintegrate" the great R12 family.

Post 1980 cars don't have such a precise chassis name although they could (cf. following note). So for now it's a precise name for older cars, and a generic one for the recent ones? IMHO, "short" chassis/project name everywhere would avoid a lot of mistakes (but not all⁽²⁾).


(1): In fact, it seems all recent Renaults have been identified by an "X" in the IMCDb, which doesn't really fit the Renault nomenclature, as "X" means only "validated project". But I understand it could be messy to separate B64, D64, E64, F64, J64, J64, L64 and S64 for a Megane I...

(2): ex: The Z10 concept car's name was Koleos, with a K like for the later coming SUV
- The model code of the normal Koleos should be X45, with the "X habit".
- And a Megane II is (X,B,C,E,G,S,K,L,J,R)84, not Z84 .
____

Off topic: Antoine, j'ai cru comprendre que tu appréciais cette drôle de bête. Voici un peu de lecture à son sujet

UK 12 codes:
R1170 L and TL
R1171 Estate (until August 72)
R1177 TS and TR (automatic)
R1330 Estate after Aug 72.
UK automatic was only sold as the TR saloon version with TS trim but TL engine. UK estates only had one trim level which was hybrid of L and TL, and never had automatic option. We never got Gordini here.

I assume you're talking about the R12, and not the R6...
R117 (genuine generic Renault code for R12) in place of X17 (code that is only for the Dacia) would do the same. And it would be the true code.


R117 in generic code. I think using precise code is just a huge source of error. You had only 4 possible codes in UK (which were part of the french ones, in fact), but french cars had 9 and export cars 7 (for 12 plants...). How should be defined (as Rxxxx) a car like this one?
For me, it's a R117 (R133 if it was a break/estate/SW). And if someone wants to "play" and tries to search more, he/she has just to write the complete car code in comment when the trim and engine is found.

We should stay on generic code, for "R" cars like for "X" ones, so we wouldn't be (too much) mistaken.


They all were conceived/made before the project code change of 1979/80. They should never had an "X" code in IMCDb, as they never had such one in their real life.


Cf. note 1 in my previous post. "R" and "X" can both be generic or precise. We could (should?) just use the generic R118, R117, R109, etc. As we could have a precise denomination with "X" models. For example, a Mégane/Scénic II is more precisely:
- Generic X84 / XM (there is also a second letter that can replace the numbers)
- B84 or BM => Mégane (5 doors)
- C84 or CM => Mégane (3 doors)
- C84 RS or CM => Mégane Coupé RS
- E84 or EM => Mégane CC
- G84 or GM => Mégane Société (3 doors)
- J84 or JM => Mégane Scénic
- K84 or KM => Mégane Estate
- L84 or LM => Mégane Sedan
- R84 or JM => Grand Scénic
- S84 or SM => Mégane Société (5 doors)

I don't think it's easier or harder to identify that way than with the R118 // R1180 - R1181 - R1189 (+ ACL2B for the Rodéo 6 ) codes of the R6 or the numerous possibilities of the R12...

We used the X-codes as it was easier.
I plan to move to the specific codes in the next version of the site, as it will be easier to handle then (models list separated from the car roles, so it will not have to be entered each time).

We already use some specific codes like the J64/J84 for the Scénic.

The Z84 was most likely a typo from a qwerty keyboard (z & x are neighbour keys)

@ dsl and people who may be interested in these details:
From 1945 to 1979/80, the Renault project code was R XXX (generic code), or R XXXZ (detailled), where XXX is a 3 numerals code (117 for R12, 118 for the R6, 109 for the Dauphine, etc.) plus another numeral to specify the trim level and/or the engine.

Since then¹, a new alphanumeirc system occurs, with a letter and 2 numerals. Letter codes depend of the kind of body:
A ambulance
B 5 doors car
C 3 doors car
D coupé
E cabriolet or roadster / Chassis for utility vehicle
F monospace "société" / small utility car (monospace = MPV/Minivan?)
G "société" based on the 5 doors car
H SUV / double cab utility car
J monospace / short bus
K estate (break/SW...) / Kangoo's passengers version
L sedan
N upper-medium size van (passenger version)
R monospace (long version)
S "société" based on the 3 doors car
U pick up / Chassis for utility vehicle
V "société" based on the break/SW / SUV (Koleos)

W non validated project
X validated project
Z show car

And as he 2 numeral code may also be replace by a letter for some cars, a J84 (or JM) is a Mégane Scénic II (project X84/XM), a L64 (or LA) is a Mégane Classic / Mégane I Sedan (project X64/XA).
A Mégane III is a (X,B,C,E,G,K,L,S,J,R)95 (or Z) model, while a SM3/Fluence is (just) a L38 one.

Who said it was that easy?
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(1) Of course, a double code existed for cars developed before that time but sold after:
127 (Renault 30 et 20), 129 (Renault 25), 137 (Renault 11), 140 (Super 5/Express) et 142 (Renault 9) were recoded X27, X29, X37, X40 and X42.

___________________

Other possible corrections due to the (not that clear) Renault code:
a)
First generation of Mégane Break/Sw where K25 (or KA) or V25 (VA)(Société). No reason given.
1- Fortunately, there's (not yet) possible mis-identification;
2- What would be better?
- Having the 42 X64-series (breaks, Estate, SW, etc.) become X64-K25-V25?
- Or juste X64-X25?
- Having two separate chassis code?
- Leaving these cars with a wrong code (and hopping the interface of IMCDb "Next G" will allow us to leave comments on model names), which means we accept the idea of giving wrong informations to the visitors?

b)
Espace IV is a J81/X81 model, not a W81. The X/W french keyboard mistake, this time?

As I said, I plan to use the specific codes for the next version of the site: it is possible to enter a code for the generation level (e.g. "Mégane II") and then a more specific code for each model in it.
The x-something codes aren't really wrong, they are just more generic way of listing the cars.

I just posted it for generic information for people interested in it. I assumed you already knew these details

I think there is a danger that the Renault R codes are too specific for what we need or can use - for instance most R12 estates in early 70s (ie before Oct 75 facelift) will be indistinguishable for us between R1170 and R1330. I'm not a Renault expert- my ceiling is recognising and looking up details of models sold in UK because that's where my data comes from. I'll probably never be able to separate the the various R codes assigned to different R12 "Export" models in the Système numérique table etc and doubt if any of us would really be able to use all those codes consistently. We may have continual problems applying those codes within ranges of eg 4, 8, 15, 16, 17 etc where different versions are visually (almost) identical. So whatever system we choose to follow - X, R or whatever else - has to be workable and applied sensibly and realistically.

We use - as a comparable example - the E code system on 50-70s UK Fords within our limitations, applying the ones we can get to work, but avoiding the others. So for instance Anglia 105E/106E/123E/124E is fine, but most Cortinas and Corsairs are code free because we can't apply them properly between visually identical versions.

One good code system from our point of view is the BMC ADO series here - http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/concepts/concepts-and-prototypes/development-codes/ - it's complicated, intricate and long-winded BUT almost everything can be directly matched without a problem. And there's a few of us who can do it equally well - its use does not rely on a single expert shouldering the responsibility.

Codes should be our tools, not our masters, and we should be able to choose the best tools for our purposes. Which includes the needs of Joe Bloggs in 5 years time as a future admin with no Renault or Ford expertise who just wants to be told what system to apply and how. So detailed lists are valuable for reference and to help us make the best choices, but can overload our capabilities unless we are brave enough to select when not to follow their every subtlety. Look at the continual messes we have with Mercedes W codes - 95% of the time successfully applied, but the other 5% ..........

We can still use R117 as generic code.
We do the same for some VW for example (not all Typ 1 are Typ 1 actually).

Nurse! My pills! Quickly!

An official generic Renault code that can be set on almost all cars including export ones, in "real life".
And X17 would be for the cars it was made for, the 79-to-99 Dacia models. Or not, if you decide that all R12 and derivatives in IMCDb are R117.
As proposed before, with general R117 (and other RSomething), experts might then use the comments for more specific refs, i.e the specific one with the 4th numeral or the R133/R236 one, when talking about the R12.


Please, say more about it, or I'll waste again a(nother) lot of hours searching informations about this

I can't find the few lists I found previously, Google search has become useless for that now that so many selling sites use these codes and that Google promote that kind of sites...

I found a list here, similar to one I found some time ago:
http://www.pagenstecher.de/Auto-Tuning-Technik-Talk/Auto-Technik---Antrieb/t120187p1/typ1--typ4.html
As you can see the Typ 1 actually had several sub-codes for newer models.
The Golf cabrio had a different code from the Golf, similar to the Beetle Cabrio.
For easier listing we simplified a little some codes.

Thanks! My German is quite a bit rusty, but I understand the basics. I'll keep this link in my toolbox.
But I promise I won't bother you with VW products. At least not on this "code issue"


Ouch, dsl's headache might become more severe, with that mix of Beetle and Golf


Ach! Noch ein Auto dass ich vergessen hatte

Could have been in another thread, but it is the same problem: wrong/inexistant code used for a Renault...

The genuine generic code of Renault for the Renault Siete/7 was R 128 (or R 1283 for the Siete/7 TL and R 1287 for the 7 GTL). Using it might avoid to have to search the 29 Siete and 7 models amongst Renault 7/8Cv and other Renault 750kg.
Ok, it's not that hard, as there is only two pages, and a special research is always possible, but it would become easier to "extract" them

added
http://imcdb.org/vehicles_make-Renault_model-R128.html

Thanks, Monsieur!
May seems to be a kind of laziness (and maybe it is a little ), but it will be easier to find the Spanish "backpack R5" with that code.

What if someone add a R 1283 model (Siete/7 TL), for example? Will this one be found among "simple" R 128, like Saab 9000 are among Saab 900 (ok not a really good example, but unfortunately true )?

Well, I tried with R110, the generic code of the Renault Frégate:
nor
gives anything, and you have to be precise to have a result:


etc. Don't help

While searching

gives Renault 7 (the post 1979 face-lift Siete) as Renaut 7/8cv or Renault 750kg

(And

give 12 pages out of 51 of Saab 9000 )

I still don't have understood all the subtleties of what must be no more than a "select [...] like '%...%'" request, but I won't give up
(a "%" missing at the end of the command when searching in the chassis table/field?)