Antp were you ever able to implement or look into adding dual origin flags on the current site?

Reason I asked, http://imcdb.org/vehicle.php?id=317468 , is the Transit has half German origin and half GB origin. I don't think this was ever resolved as to which origin is correct.

Transits will always be messy, whatever we do, and there's no clean solution. Before I joined imcdb I thought their history started when Ford Detroit wanted to merge Ford UK and Ford D into a new integrated Ford Europe and set up the Transit as the first joint project begin constructing the marriage. So when I joined imcdb and found most RHD early Transits were listed as UK origin and most LHD as D origin, it kinda made sense.

But then over the years, I learned more about Transits and it started to unravel. For a start Ford D never did any legwork for the supposed joint project and left it all to Ford UK. And as far as I can tell no Transit was ever built in Germany (ignoring the early 60s Taunus Transit, which was a completely different beast with no carry-over).

So my take on it is that no Transit (whether RHD or LHD) should have origin D - there's no reason to apply it, so it's wrong. Doesn't mean that all last century Transits were made in UK, because they were built in lots of places including Belgium, Netherlands and Turkey in Europe, and lots of other countries round the globe. However switching all Transits to origin UK starts looking stupid after early 2000s, particularly as UK builds stopped in 2013.

If we wanted to be strictly precise, we'd probably have to debate origins for each Transit generation as separate questions to resolve, and after perhaps 1990s no single uncontestable answer. If you want the debate to kick off, I'll propose the following starters:

1] no Transit of any generation should get Origin D, which means
2] the current imcdb default to give all Transits origin D should be removed
3] Origin UK should apply for all last century Transits, wherever they're built
4] Origin UK should not be applied for any 2013+ Transits, and maybe an earlier cut-off is appropriate - perhaps as far back as 2000 - see the wiki page for one account of which bits of Ford did the legwork - I'm not sure it's totally solid, but probably as good as it gets to work from.

I don't expect everyone will agree with these suggestions, so they're made with the expectation that folk will throw stones - and maybe big rocks - at them. But it should illustrate why we've never managed to solve this before.

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't the current (2013/4+) generation an US (or at least partly US) project? Anyway I'm not the most expert about them, but to me too UK origin would be the most appropriate, at least for first 3 generations. I'm not really sure about 2000+ and 2007+ models?
Anyway we have some as built in Portugal too

Wiki seems to think the MK4 was developed in the US too, which is interesting as it wasn't built or even sold there.

The D thing will always come up as that is where the head office of Ford of Europe is, and this is an argument that gets used a lot, though tends to ignore that Ford is quite a decentralised company.

Dual origin is still on the to-do list, but in rather low priority.
It would be better to have a system of default origin per model before making origin even more complex
For the Transit, I can do these changes, maybe something to bring to the mass-change thread to continue the discussion (or maybe better in a separate one if there is a lot to discuss ?)

I've split and moved to allow this discussion to be continued.

Good

Nice to have a separate discussion thread interesting that Wikipedia considers also Mk4 as an US design

I don't think labelling Mk4 as US origin is useful for reasons already stated (even if US were involved in its design) and because it looks as if European engines used. Probably just a blanket Origin EU covers it better, without having to crawl around dissecting the precise detail. 2013+ Transit went on sale in Europe 2 years before US sales according to wiki, so origin EU seems to sit better here as well. Although we can probably leave the 2015+ US-made examples for US and CDN as origin US

With regard to origin I’m perfectly OK with whichever we decide. Consistency would be ideal l.

Another question.

Is 150L LWB redundant? Doesn’t the L after the weight class denote a LWB model?
If so wouldn’t the best approach to use 150 LWB or 150L?
I tried searching for brochures to verify but I was turning up less than accurate results.

Some Transit brochures, if it can be useful for namings etc:
https://autocatalogarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Ford-Transit-1971-UK.pdf
https://autocatalogarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Ford-Transit-1978-NL.pdf
https://autocatalogarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Ford-Transit-1983-NL.pdf
https://autocatalogarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Ford-Transit-1985-NL.pdf
https://autocatalogarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Ford-Transit-1989-NL.pdf
https://autocatalogarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Ford-Transit-Jubilee-Edition-1990-NL.pdf
https://autocatalogarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Ford-Transit-2011-UK.pdf
https://autocatalogarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Ford-Transit-2013-UK.pdf
https://autocatalogarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Ford-Transit-2014-ZA.pdf
https://autocatalogarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Ford-Transit-2015-USA.pdf

LWB was the only designation for early long Transits, so has a solid history. I assume for later Transits we're getting combinations like 150L from plate/VIN info or sometimes glimpses of badges, so that is probably enough. But similar era Transits pop up without such clues, so where we can spot the length LWB should still be used. I'm not fussed if we just use the number+single letter format (we'll also have 150S and similar combos showing up), just as long as we capture the full information available in an adequate form. And it would be a pain in the proverbial for someone to back trawl our collection to remove superfluous "LWB"s while leaving the rest of the info intact. Maybe Sir Admin can concoct a precise algorithm to achieve this as a block update, but the freezer needs defrosting/the sock drawer needs sorted/the washing machine filter needs unclogging/that patch of wallpaper in the kitchen has started peeling away again, and the shed desperately needs another coat of creosote.

Anyway, if we'd entirely trust the wikipedia article (I'm not saying we should, just taking a start point for the discussion), first two generations (in our Mk nomenclature), or 1965-1985 models, are clearly British origin, Mk3 is said to have been designed by a German (but I believe they mean just the styling? I also don't see any comprehensive explanation) and Mk4 was developed in the US (but I see no source for this claim too? Also, I agree wouldn't be very useful to mark as US origin a vehicle never intended for or sold in American market). Mk5 is said to be a shared project between US and European Ford branches, but designed (again, not sure if they mean just the styling) by an American.

I also noticed that Wikipedia has no mentions of Portuguese assembly, but IIRC some VINs gave such result?

I don't remember the letter[weight number]letter format being used in the UK before the MK4, I suspect maybe it was what was used in mainland Europe.



I'm sure we had a German built one somewhere too.

Ultimately, Wikipedia is Wikipedia. It has a lot of good info, some wrong info and some missing info. Like all sources. Our job on this site is always to take info from multiple sources, carefully evaluate it and make a judgement.

Some MK3 development info, both seem to suggest development in Essex: https://www.aronline.co.uk/vans/ford-transit/ve6-development-story/
https://www.facebook.com/cardesignarchives/posts/814269142274757/

First, you're mentioning a Mk 5, when the Wikipedia article only goes to four. I'm not sure which Transit(s) you're referring to.

Also, all those conjectures about countries of origin are in that article in English. However, the corresponding article in German doesn't mention them (and goes to a Mk 7 Transit). So I wouldn't trust too much those sources.

In my humble opinion, the 1965, 1978, 1986 & 1994 are British. The more recent ones can have a european origin.

I was using our Mk method, not Wikipedia's.

Wikipedia states that the LCV development is a responsibility of the Dunton Technical Centre (Ford of Britain), together with A- and B-segment cars.



Maybe this could sound a bit too generic, as for example we know that the Mk4 and Mk5 Transit were designed in the US, but so far I used to default all the European Ford LCVs as origin UK in my entries.
Anyway, there is a confirmation for the Mk3 Transit by AROnline:



The same site reports some interesting development histories - not only of Ford vehicles - which could be helpful in assigning the correct origin also to post-unification passenger vehicles.

- The Sierra seems to be a mostly German design, as confirmed also by an user in comments who states to have worked at the project in Merkenich

- The Capri is a cooperation between the British and German centres, started by the Engineering Team of Dagenham in 1964. The Cologne Design Department joined around in 1966.



- The Mondeo MkI started as a worldwide project (CDW27), with studies made by centres in California, Germany, UK and by Ghia in Italy. For what is to understand from this article, it seems that the first Mondeo is really a cooperation work of all the Ford divisions.



Head of the design for the European version was David Price of the Dunton Technical Centre, while the first accepted design proposal came from the Cologne design studio



- The Granada is confirmed as being a German design for what regards the Mk2, for the Mk1 they write again about a pan-european design, although it could seem that most of the work was made in the UK



- The unified Taunus/Cortina models seem to be still enough differentiated for what regards the first generation [TC] to gain each of them its own origin flag (UK-Cortina and DE-Taunus), but from this article it seems that from the [TC2] model the most of the design is German made, although it's not specified

For other models, an eventual differentiation results for now very difficult. I have read sources throughout the web and books who gave me an overall idea, but nothing 100% sure for now, except maybe for the Ford Ka Mk1, which seems to be an almost entire British design.

I would say for now, origins of we could be almost sure could be:

- Ford Capri (both generations): pan-European, but started in UK
- Ford Cortina MkIII: UK
- Ford Escort MkI: UK
- Ford Fiesta MkI: totally pan-European
- Ford Galaxy MkI: Germany
- Ford Granada MkII: Germany
- Ford Ka MkI: UK
- Ford Mondeo MkI: pan-European, but more specifically, mostly German styled and British engineered
- Ford Scorpio MkI/Granada MkIII: Germany
- Ford Sierra: Germany
- Ford Taunus TC1: Germany
- Ford Taunus TC2/Cortina MkIV: Germany
- Ford Transit MkIII: UK
- Ford Transit MkIV/MkV: USA

My guesses for other models, based on informations from the web or books but not sure unless I retrieve and collect them, are:

- Ford C-Max (all): Germany
- Ford Escort MkII->on: mainly Germany (for MkIV the head of design was Helmuth Schrader of the Metternich Centre)
- Ford Focus MkI: UK (head of design: Richard Parry-Jones of Ford Britain)
- Ford Focus MkII -> on: Germany
- Ford Galaxy MkII/MkIII: Germany
- Ford Kuga (both generations): Germany
- Ford Mondeo MkIII -> on: Germany
- Ford S-Max (all): Germany
- Ford Scorpio MkII: Germany

For what regards the LCVs, I'd leave for all the UK origin, excluding the Transit Mk4/5 if the US origin is confirmed, and the Transit Connect Mk3, which is a rebadged VW Caddy.
Anyway, I'm doing some further researches. I will update this post when I've found other interesting sources

As there are no new comment I suppose I could use this last post for updating the vehicles on the site?

For Transits, I think there's reasonable agreement for:
- Mk1-3 UK origin
- Mk4 uncertain UK or EU could be used - my preference is UK, but not a clear decision either way
- Mk5-6 EU origin
- US-made Transits (no Mk used) can keep US origin

All made-ins to remain as they are. And spin-offs Transit Tourneo/Custom etc not discussed so far, so to remain as they are.

For non-Transits, I don't think we're collectively ready to change big block decisions. AleX-DJ's list has too much to absorb quickly, but is an excellent starting point for discussion. Would need line-by-line confirmation; however what we do at the moment works despite the wrinkles, and no-one's really too concerned.

OK I'll check that, thanks
There are also some that do not have a year nor a mk info that should be probably better classified.